Age[]
I believe that Shirley was 1 and a half years old in Anne of Ingleside. This is because, he turned 18 in January 1917, but was said to be 2 years old in Spring 1899. His age must have been rounded to two, because he was old enough to walk around, but still young enough to sleep in a crib.
Breather (talk) 17:09, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
- If he turned 18 in January 1917 that means he was born in January 1899. But Rilla was born in July 1899.
- We know that Anne was ill long after his birth. And she became pregnant with Rilla in November 1898. It isn't possible and that was Montgomery's mistake.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 17:55, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
- No, she probably did that on purpose, remember that Anne of Ingleside was published after Rilla of Ingleside. The only reason she made Shirley 2 years old was that if he was younger, he wouldn't be able to walk and bring flowers to Anne at the beginning of Anne of Ingleside. Also he was a similar age to Rilla because Anne would worry about them more than the others, like when he got a rash Anne was very worried about him.
- Breather (talk) 20:34, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
- Anyway, she didn't think about the fact that in Rilla of Ingleside she made Rilla and Shirley born in the same year what isn't possible, because of Anne's illness and pregnancy. He could be born in 1898 but not in 1899.
- She made him 2 years old because of the flowers you mentioned and I think she realized her mistake and tried to correct it.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 20:47, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
- She was ill after both their births, in Rilla's case she took until August (1 month) to recover.
- Breather (talk) 20:49, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, but Montgomery mentioned that after Shirley's birth her illness was unusual long and Susan cared of little Shirley. Anyway, pregnancy lasts for 9 months.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 20:57, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
- I really think that Shirley is one year older than Rilla. In Chapter 3 of Rilla of Ingleside, Rilla is fifteen when she goes to the dance, and Shirley is mentioned to be sixteen.
- Breather (talk) 20:31, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
- It it possible. If Shirley was 16 in July 1914, that means he was born in January 1898. Which is possible.
- We know that he wasn't born in 1899. So... 1897 or 1898? According to Rilla of Ingleside, he was born in 1898 (but remember the wrong calculation when he enlisted). In Anne of Ingleside, he was born in 1897. Do you know how old was Shirley anywhere in Rainbow Valley? I read the first chapter and I can't find any evidence there. Rilla was 6 years old - it was May 1906 and she was almost seven. But no evidence about Shirley.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 00:33, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
- For sure he had started school. Conning their primers means reading a children's textbook.
- Excerpt: Susan was knitting, with Shirley and Rilla conning their primers on either side.
- Breather (talk) 02:17, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
- They were reading them in spring 1907. School year started in September 1906 - when Rilla could start her first year at the age of seven.
- What about Shirley? I don't know about Canadian education in Edwardian era. We use these primers only in first year to teach pupils read.
- Shirley was one year older than Rilla. He couldn't be in first year - if he was born in 1898, he couldn't start school in 1906, because he was eight. So he had to be in second or third year.
- If he was in second, he started school in September 1905 as 7 years old - making him born in 1898.
- If he was in third, he started in September 1904 as 7 years old, making him born in 1897.
- I think, more possible year of his birth is 1898.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 22:20, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
- In the third chapter of Anne of Ingleside, Anne mentioned that ...it was quite a nice little letter for a seven-year-old who had been going to school only a year to write...
- She mentioned seven year old Jem. It was spring 1899 and Jem was still six - almost seven. In that case, Shirley could be one year and few months and she mentioned him as 2 years old.
- However! Jem started school last year - September 1898 - as six years old. If Shirley started school as 6 years old, he began his first year in 1904. And Rilla could start in 1905. So they could be in second/third year (Shirley) and first/second year (Rilla) in spring 1907.
- My question is: In which years did pupils use primers?
- LilyLacreag (talk) 22:53, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
- I guess the first two years they used primers, because after they use readers. Anne mentioned in Anne of Green Gables that there was a Royal Third Reader.
- Also do you think that Shirley was born in December 1898 (or before)? It was never stated that it was January, we just assumed it because it was after Christmas. Also he turned eighteen last Monday, which means he could have turned eighteen before January. The only thing we know for sure is that Rilla wrote her diary in Chapter 24 of Rilla of Ingleside after Christmas. I did some research: The Monday before the first week of January was December 25. All the Mondays of December 1916 were 4,11,18, and 25. All the Mondays of January 1917 were 1,8,15, 22,and 29. It would be a liitle more reasonable than him being born the same year as Rilla (the timing is still an issue though).
- Breather (talk) 23:16, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
- I think that he was born in early January 1898. He couldn't be born in December 1898, because Anne became pregnant with Rilla in November 1898.
- Rilla wrote that she was thankful Christmas is over during last week of December. In the next chapter, few days passed until day when Susan mentioned Woodrow Wilson. And then few days later Shirley decided to enlist.
- So only possible date in December 1897 could be only December 25, the Christmas Day. But I think it isn't possible. Nowhere in the series is mentioned that he celebrated (or anyone else) his birthday during Christmas. So I think that he was born in early January. The most possible date is January 8.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 09:46, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
- How long were pupils at school? Nine? I suppose they were there for nine years, because they began at the age of six and they attended next school at the age of 15. Nowdays in Canada you are 6 years at elementary school (from the age of 6 to 12) and then 3 years at Junior High/Middle school (from 12 to 15). You start High School at the age of 15 (similar to Queen's Academy - Anne and Jem started Queen's at the age of 15).
- We know that he was 16 in June 1914 and ended his first year at Queen's. Working backwards...
| Date | Year | Shirley's age |
|---|---|---|
| September 1913 - June 1914 | 1. (Queen's) | 15 → 16 |
| Sep. 1912 - June 1913 | 9. (Glen school) | 14 → 15 |
| Sep. 1911 - June 1912 | 8. | 13 → 14 |
| Sep. 1910 - June 1911 | 7. | 12 → 13 |
| Sep. 1909 - June 1910 | 6. | 11 → 12 |
| Sep. 1908 - June 1909 | 5. | 10 → 11 |
| Sep. 1907 - June 1908 | 4. | 9 → 10 |
| Sep. 1906 - June 1907 | 3. | 8 → 9 |
| Sep. 1905 - June 1906 | 2. | 7 → 8 |
| Sep. 1904 - June 1905 | 1. | 6 → 7 |
- So if he studied at Glen school for nine years, he began in September 1904, when he was 6. (Also Jem started school at the age of six.)
- In spring 1907 he was in his third year. It is possible. I found that primers were used also for teaching Geography (Geography Primer) - and only older pupils learned geography. We don't know what kind of primer Shirley read. It could be primer for another subject and he could use them in third or fourth year.
- These facts making him born in January 1898 and I hope we finally solved the problem about his year of birth, because I'm near madness. : )
- But I want know Ginny's opinion about this.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 14:18, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if Ginny will read this.
- Breather (talk) 14:46, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
- I just read somewhere that Woodrow made his speech on January 22, 1917. That's around the time of Shirley's birthday.
- Breather (talk) 14:52, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
- Now we can finally say, that Shirley was born in January 1898. Probably on January 15 or 22.
- I hope she will read this - I wanna know opinion of third person.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 16:05, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
(Restarting the indents to make this easier to read) I have actually been reading and following this talk page, just not replying.)
My opinion: I think Shirley was born on 15 January 1898. He says on the day Woodrow Wilson made his speech (22 Jan) that his birthday was last Monday, so he had to have been born the week before: the 15th. It doesn't fit with his age in Rilla of Ingleside (he should have turned 18 a year earlier), but if that age was right then he would be barely older than Rilla, which we know can't be possible. If he was born in 1898, that means that he was one and a half when Anne returned to Ingleside at the beginning of the sixth book. It's possible his age was rounded to two there. He doesn't show up very much in Rainbow Valley, aside from the occasional mention, and this is the first book written that mentions him at all. LMM likely (in my opinion) calculated ages when she returned to the Anne series to write Anne of Windy Poplars and Anne of Ingleside and noticed the errors, so made Shirley a bit older in Anne of Ingleside so that the dates would fit properly.
So, this is what I think we should do: put Shirley's date of birth up on the page as 15 January 1898, and then write a little note in the "Behind the scenes" section explaining the contradictions.
*Ginny*leave a message 01:25, February 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for your reply. I agree with you and I think January 15 is the best date. I changed it in his infobox - I hope someone will add that note to Behind the scenes because I can't explain it simple.
- LilyLacreag (talk) 14:29, February 25, 2013 (UTC)